Curse

Crom The Pale · Jul 29, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

The only time I would push for using a Superior rune is on a Minion Master, especiall with Flesh Golem.

Other wise the bonus for +1 ( vs using a magor rune) is far to weak to bother.

Infact most of the time the difference between using a minor (14 Attribute) and Superior (16 Attribute) is about 5-10 damage at the best of times!

How can anyone really justify taking 75damge to gain only +5 dmg on skills?

Dr Strangelove · Jul 29, 2008, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

(Also the guy earlier in the thread who said that the fact that superiors aren't used in PvP show that the cost/benefit of runes is out of balance is completely right. In PvP the bigger numbers on skills don't make up for the greater vulnerability to spiking.)

To make a point, the minor-runes-only thing only arose in PvP after they removed armor swapping. If you can only pick one, minor is probably the better choice. However, before armor swapping was removed people would wear a superior rune until they accumulated DP, then swap to a higher HP set.

If you honestly never die in PvE, then a superior rune is fine. If you're willing to buy a second headpiece + rune, run a superior and a switch. If you're lazy as crap but still recognize that deaths happen in HM, run a minor. If your name is Dunkoro and you love running up to monsters and hugging them, run a minor and full vitae.

Joe Fierce · Jul 29, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

To make a point, the minor-runes-only thing only arose in PvP after they removed armor swapping. If you can only pick one, minor is probably the better choice. However, before armor swapping was removed people would wear a superior rune until they accumulated DP, then swap to a higher HP set.

If you honestly never die in PvE, then a superior rune is fine. If you're willing to buy a second headpiece + rune, run a superior and a switch. If you're lazy as crap but still recognize that deaths happen in HM, run a minor. If your name is Dunkoro and you love running up to monsters and hugging them, run a minor and full vitae.

or if you're master of whispers and think that SS has a half distance cast range, or zhed that can only run dual attune air effectively or tank, but not when equipped with a tanking build, no no no.

Kapral · Jul 30, 2008, 12:08 AM // 00:08

I always use a Sup rune in pve and I rarely die.

Esan · Jul 30, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

I always use one superior rune in PvP. Guess which one.

Winterclaw · Jul 30, 2008, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

There are a few skills with hard breakpoints at 15 and 16. Mind blast, minions, spawning power, and expertise come to mind.

That's the problem, there are a few skills or attributes which need it, but many don't.

kvndoom · Jul 30, 2008, 04:50 AM // 04:50

If I'm using a sword or axe, Superior all the way, even in Hard Mode. Never had a problem there. I'll run a minor Hammer Mastery though, since I can't use a shield when attacking.

In PVP, Superior Vigor, duh (unless I need high Expertise for a ranger build).

Kashrlyyk · Jul 30, 2008, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

When observed completely impassionately, the fact that minor runes are the way to go when it really matters (i.e., in PvP) indicates that the runing system is not properly balanced, i.e., the malus for major and superior runes is unconditionally larger than the respective bonus.

This seems to be the first post grasping what the OP, in my opinion, was talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Well... That's the trade-off, isn't it? Do you more need health so you can survive a couple more hits than you otherwise would, or do you want to have roughly 10% bigger numbers on your skills?....

10% What skills are you using??? Most of the times it increases by 2 points of damage. Earthquake gets another 5 damage, when you go from 15 to 16, but that is 5%.

Arutima · Jul 30, 2008, 05:44 AM // 05:44

I don't use superiors at all in pve, except when i play with my necro, doing MM.

Martin Alvito · Jul 30, 2008, 07:13 AM // 07:13

There's no reason to avoid running a sup for whatever you're running in PvE, since you can always armor swap to the minor. If the monsters are putting a coordinated spike on you, aggro better kthx, or swap out the sup prior to aggroing.

As a result, there's no problem of balance if all you're talking about is PvE.

Sups in PvP largely died after armor swaps were disallowed. Sup runes + DP = gfg.

You could make an argument for reducing the health loss from sups...but how low do we have to go to encourage players to run one? My guess is that the health loss would have to be considerably less than it is at present.

NoXiFy · Jul 30, 2008, 08:22 AM // 08:22

theirs a +3 norn superior rune? Sick! My ursan needed a buff

+200 health isnt enough!

tmakinen · Jul 30, 2008, 09:00 AM // 09:00

When talking about malus, one should also notice that in the current system minor runes come with a hidden malus as well since you always have a choice of using a minor attribute rune or a rune of Vitae. Hence, you are effectively trading away 10 HP for one additional attribute point. Because this is a trade-off that everybody seems to be willing to make we have a hard lower limit on the size of acceptable malus. Now if we take the hidden malus into account with other runes as well we get

minor: -10/1 = -10 HP/point -> acceptable
major: -(10+35)/2 = -22.5 HP/point -> not acceptable
superior: -(10+75)/3 = -28.3 HP/point -> not acceptable

People who point out that the 'minors only' policy solidified along with the armor swap prohibition in PvP are absolutely right, and that's the point where a previously existing balance with runes broke down as an unintended consequence. If we work backwards and assume that a trade-off of -15 HP/point would still be marginally acceptable, then the proper malus for each potency would be

minor -(15*1 - 10) = -5 HP
major -(15*2 - 10) = -20 HP
superior -(15*3 - 10) = -35 HP

And this, of course, for PvP because that's where the balance doesn't currently exist. This is not a suggestion, just an observation.

Lyndka · Jul 30, 2008, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Damn, I keep missing important memos!

I vanquished Tyria and became legendary guardian and legendary cartographer 100% with H/H, without use of ursan or consumables, and everyone in my team had a superior rune. If only I'd known superiors were death sentences!

Seriously, come on. If you find PvE so hard that using superiors is the difference between living and dying, then you probably need to change your build. Superiors are completely viable in PvE.

PvP is another matter entirely.

I think I missed that memo too - I do dungeons without consets or Ursan but apparently that's not allowed either. I do wish someone would create a 'sticky' for these memo's that keep going astray

Queenie · Jul 30, 2008, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormDragonZ

I'm fine with my Major Vigor Runes.

I agree, really no point in spending an extra, say 14k for an extra 9hp. sigh

Div · Jul 30, 2008, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Supply and demand. That's why prices have gone down.

A lot of people still use sups and majors.

Davros Uitar · Jul 30, 2008, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Damn, I keep missing important memos!

I vanquished Tyria and became legendary guardian and legendary cartographer 100% with H/H, without use of ursan or consumables, and everyone in my team had a superior rune. If only I'd known superiors were death sentences!

Seriously, come on. If you find PvE so hard that using superiors is the difference between living and dying, then you probably need to change your build. Superiors are completely viable in PvE.

PvP is another matter entirely.

Q F T - 12 characters

EPO Bot · Jul 30, 2008, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Always using two majors.
Superior is nice for eles tough.

zwei2stein · Jul 30, 2008, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyndka

I think I missed that memo too - I do dungeons without consets or Ursan but apparently that's not allowed either. I do wish someone would create a 'sticky' for these memo's that keep going astray

There outght to be lots of memos like this, several months ago I was questing in magguna with mule on other accounts for free unlocks and automatically turned on HM.

1 hour later, area was vanquished, heroes leveled from ~16 to ~19 (they were not runed at all) while my character got level in badass (L20 but only Ventari armor, some random weapon he was muling, no elites, 20att quests not done yet, wammo built for amusement).

You don't need perfect setup to do most of stuff, but it really is silly to deny yourself "baseline" power. I would expect everyone to be equipped in way they deem best.

VinnyRidira · Jul 30, 2008, 11:47 AM // 11:47

I have never seen the point for superior runes and I have played 11 characters for the 10 professions. Majors are a total waste of time. I suppose the superiors are only good for 55hp build.

Evil_Necro · Jul 30, 2008, 01:19 PM // 13:19

superior runes..

Used to use it a lot. On my Ele and Necro (DM) though.

Now, however, not so much. all minors and 1 major.

We need more healths! give me superior massive vigor rune now!

Oh well...